Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 3:28 am Posts: 804 Location: Buffalo, NY
I have often wondered about the slow reveal of sorcery throughout the series. In TDTCB there was almost none worth mentioning, except that pittance of a mage that assailed Kellhus when he was first coming to the three seas. Each book after, sorcery is revealed more and more to us. Each book shows that it has more power, unimaginably so, than in the previous book. From our first encounter of it, to the epic fight with the dragon, sorcery has grown and changed.
The questions I have:
How long will this trend continue? Hopefully each successive book continues along this trend, transforming sorcery into the kind of world cracking thunder that I have been hoping for.
And why? Does Bakker do this on purpose, like with most things, revealing it slowly and with purposeful vagness. Or has this happened because Bakker himself was unsure of what he wanted it to be, its limitations, and its relevance?
I think the "guy" Kellhus meets is more than a pittance of a mage.
I think Sorcery was pretty well established as bad ass as early as the library scene in TWP. It was then just a question of scale. In what ways would you say it changed? Akka always uses that concusion cant and the compass i think throughout the books.
i think you'll get your hope though with regards to world cracking thunder, I want to know what the things are that Kellhus has when he meets the non-men and also considering what he was doing when he rescued the army of the souths mage contingent he is capable of some crazy stuff.
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 3:28 am Posts: 804 Location: Buffalo, NY
I guess not so much changed as evolved. Sure the library scene was sweet, but compared to the sorcery battles later on, it was nothing all that special. An exploded library and some dragon heads, compared to the battles in Shimeh? Not even a fair comparison. Then you look at that battle, and to Cleric in Cil-Aujas, again not even close, even when you look at Kel's metagnostic stuff. Then Cil compared to the dragon, or the battles of the Ordeal, again to me its a hugely different thing.
Why pretend like Kel could get away from a Quya mage in the first chapter, and then make the Quya out to be some kind of all powerful beings.
So yeah, not really changed, its always been called amazing, but each book the mages get exceptionally more powerful.
TDTCB - Kellhus' encounter with Mekeritrig, Inrau fighting the Skin-Spies, Battle of Kiyuth, Parlay with Skauras and Xinemus via Moenghus the Elder TWP - Cant of Calling (first sight of the Mandate Gnosis), Bar of Heaven, Psuhkari at the Battle of Mengedda, Wathi Doll, Soretic Library (Anagogic vs. Gnosis), Soretic Library (Daimos), Siege of Caraskand (Psuhke vs. Anagogis)
Then TTT, the first real battle we see of Sorcery from Schoolmen's perspectives - Bakker did want to call TTT When Sorcerers Sing - the Battle of Shimeh, Anagogic vs. Psuhke, Gnosis vs. Daimos again, Gnosis vs. Anagogis again.
Then finally we see some raging Gnosis and Quyan Gnosis in TJE but really its a pittance compared to the Battles in WLW when the Schools of the Great Ordeal are unleashed.
I'd say in the Unholy Consult shit is gonna hit the fan. I wouldn't doubt if we finally see the explosive Gnosis vs. Gnosis, which is clearly the only contender for where this is going to go - also Metagnosis vs. ? the Consult has come up with. I'm counting on seeing some Aporetic Sorcery going down and probably a more thorough understanding of the Psuhke.
However, that really, really depends on whether or not the Consult will contest Dagliash themselves, or simply let their minions do it.
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Joined: Wed May 16, 2012 5:42 pm Posts: 105 Location: Rochester, NY
I loved that he took his time showing us how unbelievably powerful Achamian was.
For most of TDTCB, he's pitiful. And when you finally realize he really can boil people from the inside just by thinking it... the character transforms.
The sheer magnitude of his abilities combined with the reluctance to ever use them, shows us the true heart of a Skeptic. A believer-skeptic. Who no longer knows what to believe.
Always reminds me of the best thing Tolkien ever wrote: Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.
_________________ Any fool can see the limits of seeing, but not even the wisest know the limits of knowing. Thus is ignorance rendered invisible, and are all Men made fools.
The Chorae Hoard is how Sakarpus managed to survive the First Apocalypse. The No-God circumvented it, saving his limited sorcerous resources to overcome the South.
One of the ideas behind anarcane ground simply follows the notion that the boundaries between the World and the Outside are variable. Some, taking the distinction between wakefulness and dreams as their analogy, believe anarcane ground to be Holy ground - places where the God has, for whatever reason, focussed his attention - dreams lucidly - thus rendering the co-option of his Song by sorcery difficult if not impossible.
Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2005 wrote:
Good questions, all. Personally, I've always worried that the Chorae may come across as too ad hoc, as mere narrative conveniences that allow a happy (but not very credible) balance between the sorcerous and the non-sorcerous. But in point of fact, that role came after - the Chorae developed independently. From the outset, I've looked at each of the sorcerous branches in linguistic terms, as practices where language commands, rather than conforms to, reality. So the Anagogis turns on the semantic power of figurative analogies, the Gnosis turns on the semantic power of formal generalizations, the Psukhe turns on speaker intention, and so on. And much as language undoes itself in paradoxes, sorcery can likewise undo itself. The Aporos is this 'sorcery of paradox,' where the meanings that make sorcery possible are turned in on themselves to generate what might be called 'contradiction fields.'
Since the metaphysics of sorcery actually plays a significant role in TTT, it would probably be better to postpone a more in depth discussion until then.
_________________ Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit Die Better
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 3:28 am Posts: 804 Location: Buffalo, NY
coobek wrote:
I cannot wait for Apropos to be revealed. I wonder if it will be Mimara who is the one.
With her initial extreme interest in magic, combined with their proximity to the Nonmen who are perhaps the only ones left who remember.... And what a wonderful way to get back at the world that wronger her by destroying its savior? Fits nicely.
Sorry to nit-pick, coobek, but aporetical (a. Doubting; skeptical.) has a quite different meaning from apropos (adj. Being at once opportune and to the point.)
Apologies.
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