The Second Apocalypse

maybe they did, and got a new one, several times, until there were only a few consult left = P

So who thinks that Ishaul is empty and who thinks it has some type of survivor within? As much as I'd love to see a survivor within Isaul, I don't think Bakker will give us that much...

'cmon. one does not simply 'kill' ALL the dunyain

I still think that there's a chance that Saccares is a Dunyain.

I won't be surprised either way, but not only does he learn the metagnostic cants, but he talks like Kellhus in a manipulative way at one point in a way that really seemed like it could have been a subtle hint from Bakker.

My bold in both cases.
Also note that on page 491 Saccarees himself destroys the grandmaster of the Vokalati, and is then attacked by "fairly half the Vokalati", who he also presumably destroys. He of course survives this, but what a powerful schoolman to take out half a school by himself unscathed. Perhaps too powerful to be a mere human?
Remember that Akka took on the grandmaster of the Spires and 4 other sorcerers of rank, killing 2 of them, and barely escaping with his life. Not a grandmaster, but its been speculated that Akka is very strong and has been kept in the field for political reasons. He isn't your typical lowly field spy.

If I recall correctly his only confirmed kill was the grandmaster. He does survive the attack of most of the Vokalati but then the Mandate get in on the whole infighting buisness. But then he is supposedly a lot more capable then Akka. So one can assume it would take a lot of Anagogic Schoolmen to take him down with certainty.

No not really. There is no hard description of what went on after the death of the grandmaster. Which is why I said presumably. What is said is "And so did the Schools of the Mandate and Vokalati consume each other in a final act of madness".

Though that description is clearly incorrect since on the next page it starts talking about how the Schoolmen are all alone and Saccarees comes down to find Umrapathur's body. Clearly an Anagogic school whos grandmaster was so easily dispatched and who has half of their force focused on a single member of the opposition would not in any way be able to "destroy" the Gnostic Mandate.

There is also no mention of a single other Mandate schoolman helping out Saccarees after he is beset. From the description it would seem that he himself destroyed the Vokalati, though it is possible that he simply just kept singing wards and let the rest of the Mandate obliterate the Vokalati one by one.

And one more thing, you said it would take "a lot of Anagogic Schoolmen". Wouldn't half a school constitute as "a lot"? From TTT the few are called the few for a reason. Half a school is a significant number of the total schoolmen in the world. They did have a lot, perhaps a chorus larger than any in history focused on a single target, and somehow he comes out unscathed? Sure maybe he is just lucky, or maybe he is just that much better than any other schoolmen and yet still just human. Or, perhaps, he is something more.

I'm going to hazard a guess that the Swayali represent the majority of the Ordeal's sorcerous strength at this point. Bakker classically understates episodes, like Wilshire's quote, throughout the series, which then find themselves front & center in the successive books.

Also, I think its likely that the Dunyain remain in Ishual. It strikes me as a fairly obvious strategy in order to hide themselves from the world further. But I'd guess that Achamian isn't going to find the answers he seeks there...

Plus, from what was hinted in the comments at TPB, Bakker implies that Achamian and Mimara would only be spending the first chapter wrapping up their time at Ishual.

A couple of observations:

1. I don't know why I was surprised to find the Dunyain gone from Ishual. Stupidity, I guess. Given their experience with Moenghus, there is every reason for them to remove themselves from Ishual after sending out Kellhus. Of course, there is the possibility that Kellhus himself somehow went back and exterminated all the remaining Dunyain, but logistically that seems improbable.

2. Why The Second Apocalypse is so great: just look at the discussion provoked by this little tidbit. 5 books in, and yet the central mysteries of the story are still unsolved. And these mysteries MATTER greatly. Their resolution (I think we should all pray for Bakker's health and well being to whichever gods we can find -- just think of the horror! the HORROR! -- if he should get into a car accident before finishing these books! OMG I can't even...) will literally shake the foundation of the world. What other high fantasy book can say the same?

This really goes to the heart of fantasy. One of the genre's early practitioners, H.P. Lovecraft, lamented that in this modern age "wonder left the mind of man." Well, these books certainly bring us wonder and horror like no other.

Also, lockesnow -- love, love, love your "math thesis." I've always suspected that calculus is the tool of the devil, invented to torment young students. Now I know for sure.

I somehow missed Triscuit's contributions from a a few weeks ago:


What if the Consult is fooled as well as everyone else. Three can keep a secret if two of them are dead. If the truth of the heart is something Seswatha kept to himself and he created this elaborate tale of how his heart was to be used/preserved he can hide the heart in plain sight, with the Mandate and the Consult none-the-wiser. Particularly if no one outside the Mandate is aware of the Heart. Considering how well Seswatha resists all torture of Achamian, I'd think the Heart is tremendous secret, otherwise the Scarlet Spires or rival schools would have tried to steal the heart to gain the gnosis. Presumably Nautzera was replaced after the Grasping. This then begs the question of why Nautzera didn't destroy the heart, as that would be the most effective way of destroying the Mandate, perhaps even after replacing Nautzera, the Consult was somewhat clueless of the significance of the ceremony called the Grasping?



Ahem, that'd be pretty huge motivation for Esmenet as well, if she betrays Kellhus, the Ordeal and all Mankind in an attempt to forestall her own damnation, perhaps this is why the Narindar is next to her, she plays the role of Ieva.