The Second Apocalypse

This connection has only occurred to me twice. Until now, that is. Here is my evidence for considering Cunoroi/Dunyanic interaction.

"To embrace mystery was one thing, to render it divine was quite another. What the Nonman said sounded too much like Kellhus, and too little like what Achamian knew of Nonmen mystery cults." p. 495-496, TJE

"We are Many!" the Erratic roared. "We are legion! What you call your soul is nothing but a confusion, an inability! A plurality that cannot count the moments that divide it and so calls itself One." p. 890, WLW

And now, while I was looking for a response to Blackstone's 5 tribes question:

Legion: A Dunyain term referring to the preconscious sources of the conscious thought. p. 462, TTT Glossary LE

So... Did the Nonmen found the Dunyain order? Did the Nonmen move on Ishual on force or stumble upon it? Did the Dunyain send another son to dominate, to condition Ishterebinth long ago?

Aside, have the Dunyain Pragma conditioned the very World from their fastness? Kellhus might simply be the final run on permutations considered for millennia.

Madness, that has been something stuck in my craw for some time. *What* does Akka know about Nonmen mystery cults? Do we ever get some elucidation there?

Or will this require us meeting the Intact.

Hmm...

Crackpot theory:

Maybe that's why the Consult now control Ishterebinth and Ishual is destroyed. The Nonmen came across the Dunyain and tried to adopt their philosophies and mental control to cope with the trauma of their erraticism. The Consult got frightened and reacted quickly, dominating Ishterebinth and destroying Ishual. (They'd certainly have the resources) Kellhus is actually sending his daughter and Mog to meet up with the Ishterebinth resistance movement that is allied with the few remaining Dunyain and together they'll regain control of the Mansion, honor the Niom, and retake Dagliash.

Sci - What is a nonman mystery cult? I thought they worshiped the cracks between the Gods, which doesn't really sound like a mystery cult so much as a way of avoiding damnation.

I think the Nonmen mystery cults probably reflect ancient human mystery cults of our own world. Orgies, Drugs, and living Transcendence .

However, sciborg, Bakker has made a definite pattern of only allowing in-context narration from our POVs. Like how Achamian clearly knows about the 144,000 of legend yet never mused upon this once until WLW or the Judging Eye - something which clearly actually has to do with historical prophecy. Now these could be things he learned in the interim. But I feel like he'd didn't do anything but Dream and chronicle for twenty years.

I just assume Achamian knows basically everything and will let us know all in good time.

Well, I doubt he has much reason to think of some obscure legend about 144,000 souls unless it comes up in his life.

Achamian continually knows more than we the readers are ever privy to. Need-to-know paranoia runs so deep in this man it is narrative.

Well, we have a good candidate for the founding of the Dunyain and perhaps that candidate had a good reason to do so.

Nil Giccas. The connection of his philosophy of Legion could predate the existence of the Dunyain. We know that The Tutelage ended because of the rape of Omindalea when Nil Giccas refused to turn over the male nonman who'd done the deed (perhaps also Nil Giccas?)

Ishterebinth was the seat of Nil Giccas and shares a prefix with Ishual (exalted grotto) and is the closest civilization to Ishual. Nil Giccas was a great friend of the anasurimbor celmomas and may have informed him of Ishual and offered it as a gift, or they may have conspired together in its construction reasoning that the best way to hide from the Consult was right under their nose.

Let's suggest that Nil Giccas never wanted the tutelage to end, and had started an ascetic cult in secret. However, he didn't want to tutor men on sorcery but on theology, I think he hoped that men would master it the way they mastered the gnosis. When Sauglish fell, he gathered those of his cult that survived and led them to Ishual.

Kellhus has figured this all out. He never knew about Ses' map, and just figured that the best way to help Akka and Mim find Ishual was to give them the most powerful Quya as their guide, particularly as he'd helped to found it.

Alternate/side theory: After the rape of omindalea, Nil Giccas took in the child. However, he could not raise it amongst nonmen at Ishterebinth because a child nonman, and female nonman would be immediately noticed. So he constructed an exalted grotto for the only nonman female to live. he promptly bedded her and eventually produced the anasurimbor line. The anasurimbor kept their seat in this secret fastness for several centuries before they ventured out, conquered, and became the ur-king of the umerian empire. The place was known only to their family, which is why ganrelka returned there to try and hide out the apocalypse.


Alternate crackpot: When legend says that Nil'Giccas was embittered by the loss of his sons in 2132, perhaps legend means Nil'Giccas half-human sons--anasurimbor princes--rather than cunoroi sons.

Well, look to the prologue of TDTCB. I started re-reading it today. M confronts Kellhus after killing his Sranc, observes him after hearing his name, says "I see that you are a student. Knowledge is power, eh?" (p. 27) Granted, he could easily be talking about Kell's silence at the time, but it seems a bit too, mm, convenient in that light. Given the events later in the series and this conversation, perhaps there's something more. The entire prologue is a mirror of the latter part of the series anyway: ex. Leweth and Aurang's calling the world an outrage, etc.

I'll buy that there could be some Nonman influence on the Dunyain philosophy, but if there is it was all from prior to the apocalypse. The Dunyain had no idea that Nonmen existed when Kellhus left Ishual, as evident from Kell's reaction to (Mekeritrig?). Prior to entering Ishual, the Dunyain knew magic existed and no doubt knew that Nonmen did as well, but they erased it from their history.

The Anasurimbor existed long before Ishual did. One of the Anasurimbor's built it during the Apocalypse.

Well, Blackstone, I'll just suggest that unless - probably until - we are able to understand more of the Dunyain hierarchy, we just don't know what the Dunyain knew. Were Kellhus and Moenghus even among the upper tiers of the Dunyain considering their ages and the ages of the Pragma? Or are they more pawns than otherwise?

As it stands we just know what Kellhus knew. As far as POV time goes, that ain't much.